Andy Buckley wrote:
> Troy Dawson wrote:
>>  - Ubuntu creep -
>> How many labs are seeing this?
>> Do they see this as a problem?
> 
> Hi guys,
> 
> I've been meaning to mention something like this for a while, but the
> above comment was the eventual catalyst! Unfortunately I won't be at
> Hepix, so it'll have to be an online-only comment/discussion.
> 
> I'm not speaking as any sort of lab (or even department) spokesperson,
> but the Ubuntu creep issue sounds very relevant to me. In Durham we are
> currently trialling Ubuntu on two desktops, with plans to eventually
> roll it out as our main desktop deployment. It's already widely used on
> staff laptops. We largely get away with this because it's a theory group
> and so compatibility with LHC experiment / LCG software (which is often
> non-portable because of dumbness rather than any fundamental
> incompatibility) isn't an issue.
> 
> The reason for our planned move to Ubuntu (and here I paraphrase, since
> I'm not our computing manager) is that while SL is an okay stable
> platform for Grid and batch farm nodes, the slow release cycle and
> resultant outdated application/desktop software are extremely
> frustrating for desktop use. (I also find that ensuring that HEP
> software works on both SL and Debian-esque platforms is a good way to
> cross-check for subtle bugs.)
> 
> As one of our desktop trialees, I've found Ubuntu (Gutsy, so far) a much
> more pleasant experience than SL4, and actually the range of packaged
> scientific software is larger. That's (genuinely) not meant as a
> criticism of Troy and Connie, who obviously work very diligently on SL,
> but 2 people attempting to maintain an entire distro is naturally less
> sustainable and dynamic than the whole Debian community + Ubuntu
> community + Mark Shuttleworth's semi-bottomless pockets. I'm mindful
> here that I don't want you to think of me as a "troll" --- the work
> you've done on SL is great, but for me it just can't compete with what
> Ubuntu has done for desktop Linux in the last few years.*
> 
> With that in mind, and given that the SL team is so stretched, what
> happened to the suggestion (a year or so ago) of moving to a model with
> SL as an extra yum/apt repository on top of specified commodity Linux
> distributions? The current way looks to me like very hard work by
> comparison!
> 
>> Do they see this as a problem 3 or 4 years from now when users are
>> still running Ubuntu 7.0.4?
> 
> I know that some of our laptop users have upgraded at least once since
> their initial installation. Since Ubuntu's stable releases occur at
> predictable times, and the installer alerts suitably privileged desktop
> users that an upgrade is possible, I suspect that being stuck on old
> versions of Ubuntu is less likely than with SL. But I have no data on that!
> 
> Andy
> 
> [*]  To be honest, I also use Ubuntu on my HEP servers now,
> (www.hepforge.org, and friends) by preference, so it's not just desktops
> and laptops where "Ubuntu creep" is happening.
> 
> --
> Dr Andy Buckley
> Institute for Particle Physics Phenomenology
> Durham University
> 0191 3343798 | 0191 3732613 | www.insectnation.org

Hi Andy,
Thank you for well thought out reply.
You brought up several very good points, and it looks like a very good example 
of how and why it is happening.
Since you are not going to be there, and this is very well written, would you 
mind if I quoted some or all of this in the Plenary Discussion notes?

Thanks
Troy
-- 
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Troy Dawson  [log in to unmask]  (630)840-6468
Fermilab  ComputingDivision/LCSI/CSI DSS Group
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